New to F@H need startup info

This client will only use a single CPU

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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby jrweiss » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:37 am

Yes, in most cases under Windows (all versions) the /work folder is created under the folder containing the client executable. So you can more easily keep track of multiple clients in the future, it is useful to run each client in a discrete folder under a main F@H folder (e.g., C:\Apps\FAH\CPU1, C:\Apps\FAH\CPU2, C:\Apps\FAH\GPU...).

Once a CPU client is stable, you can set it to run as a Service so it runs when nobody is logged in, and is immune to Fast User Switching and multiple logins. I don't know if the GPU client will run as a Service under Win7; it does under XP, but not Vista. The SMP client will not run as a Service. (All "official" stances; some geeks have managed to run "unsupported" configurations.)
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby MtM » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:49 am

jrweiss wrote:Yes, in most cases under Windows (all versions) the /work folder is created under the folder containing the client executable. So you can more easily keep track of multiple clients in the future, it is useful to run each client in a discrete folder under a main F@H folder (e.g., C:\Apps\FAH\CPU1, C:\Apps\FAH\CPU2, C:\Apps\FAH\GPU...).

Once a CPU client is stable, you can set it to run as a Service so it runs when nobody is logged in, and is immune to Fast User Switching and multiple logins. I don't know if the GPU client will run as a Service under Win7; it does under XP, but not Vista. The SMP client will not run as a Service. (All "official" stances; some geeks have managed to run "unsupported" configurations.)


Actually MS Guidelines would rather place them in %appdata% since Vista but ok :) Win7 is more or less the same drivers architecture as Vista, no gpu service. Smp client as service isn't even part of the debate yet, he's going for the advised learning curve which puts smp out of reach for the novice folder. Good point about the shared root folder for multiple clients, it is easier.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:54 pm

Well, I have four clients running. The client I started yesterday is working a different project than the three clients I started this morning. The three started this morning are working the same project, same protein but have different run, clone and gen numbers. I would assume this means that they are running as they should.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby MtM » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:04 pm

Yes. as long as they are not running the exact same PRCG everything is aok, you shouldn't ever see the same PRCG on diffrent machines or clients if you do report on the forum the assignment server is acting up.

Did you properly give them all a diffrent machineID? If so, you're all set and as said above by jrweis when you feel comfortable with them running ok you can configure them to run as service so they do not clutter up your desktop. You can use fahMON/HFM.net/fahSpy or another monitoring tool to check their progress.

Glad to have you onboard the folding train :D
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:31 pm

Thanks to everyone for the help in getting me up and running.

Yes, each client has a different machine ID, 1 thru 4.

Has a study been done that shows one configuration to be better/faster than another, I.e. would it be better for me to run SMP (I believe this is for multi-core machines) or multiple Uniprocessor clients, one dedicated to each core as I am currently configured?
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby MtM » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:41 pm

The problem is the definition of better, yes SMP is a more futuristic client, with a higher scientific throughput then running multiple classic clients. But as noted, SMP can be troublesome for some, and has not reached maturity as the classic client has. So while the contribution might be higher, for some people the troubles discourage them and they quit f@h together which isn't very efficient from a project standpoint. So, the community tries to easy new folders into the process with beginning with the most end user friendly client, the classic one.

If you already feel like making the next step yes you could try smp, but I would advice reading through the guides first, then the forum section for the smp client, just to get a notion of the possible problems you can encounter. If you already done so, and still want to try smp, who could tell you it's not time yet? Only you can decide, we only advice.

And, adding to that, classic client is important to the research, no it is not as fast, but it has allot of running projects and they are equally important to the projects now running on smp and gpu2 from our ( donor ) point of view. If the scientists have projects for a client to fold, we should assume they are useful to them, should we not :)

Flops do not directly correlate to scientific importance, the gpu clients are so much faster in raw power, but compared to any of the other clients they have very strict limits to how the hardware can be used.

There is allot of info about this on the forum, many threads have been started with that question or like this one have ended up with this question. I don't have links at hand, but search is your friend here :)

Hope this helps abit.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby jrweiss » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:59 pm

"Better" is what works for you.

To clarify, when MtM talks about "contribution," he means the "Points per Day" or PPD count that you see bandied about these forums a lot. While it is not a strict measure of performance or value to the Project, it's the only quantitative measure we have as contributors.

Given that basis, you will find that in the current mix of projects, 4 CPU clients working on the 905-point 248x/249x project series will get just as many PPD as a 1920-point 2665 series SMP project. My Q9450 is doing the former at about 1940 PPD, while my faster Q9650 is doing the latter at 2100 PPD (I use 4*CPU clients on the Q9450 because it is on a wireless network connection, which causes numerous hangup problems with the current SMP client). So, using the SMP client won't necessarily generate more "value" for the Project at any given time, though it generally should generate more points over the long term.

Also, as soon as you lose a project due to a BSOD or other computer glitch, the point count will go down, especially if it causes you to miss the much closer SMP deadlines. So, a STABLE Folding machine is MUCH better than a "faster" but unreliable machine.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:01 pm

MtM,

Yes that does help. I have some time off so I will monitor what I have running just to get an idea of what my throughput is. I have 8 cores but only 4 clients currently running and task manager is reporting 50% cpu usage (always nice to have agreement). I will continue to add clients and monitor F@H performance and how it affects my home usage of the computer. I still need to play with stopping/pausing and restarting clients. I do not have big demands for home usage and I will find a balance. After getting a feel for that I will probably give SMP a try, I do enjoy a challenge. In the end I guess I will be conducting my own study. :lol:
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby MtM » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm

jrweiss wrote:To clarify, when MtM talks about "contribution," he means the "Points per Day" or PPD count that you see bandied about these forums a lot. While it is not a strict measure of performance or value to the Project, it's the only quantitative measure we have as contributors.


Actually I ment scientific contribution, while it's maybe not fair to say so, but smp does have a higher scientific value in the long run as it does not introduce more limitations alongside it's inovations ( like gpu is way more limited atm, like ps3's cell is faster but also clearly has more limits then a x86 cpu ). So, smp will mature and I think eventually replace the classic client ( it can run in classic mode, just leave out -smp ), so from that point of view running the client which will have the longer lifespan helps it mature by debugging issues and therefore helps the project in the long run to archieve a higher throughput of scientific data I think.

Am I wrong?

But yeah, on the other hand, it's easy to use ppd as measurement, though I really don't look at it that way. I know people who have very high ppd, but are running two vm's on each quadcore. In my opinion, even OP contribution is higher as he is not intentionally introducing delays. So, no I don't talk about PPD as 'contribution', I thought we been through this before ;)

@Rtbrd, if you have an I7 cpu, you got 4 cores, but hyperthreading shows 8, the official guidelines is still one fahcore per physical cpu, this has not changed yet. Just saying I do not know how the last 4 client will scale, and while I'm sure you will make deadlines on all I am not sure what to recommend.

If you have an I7, maybe -> http://www.evga.com/FORUMS/tm.aspx?m=4464 would be nice to look at. It's the most advanced client there is cpu wise, SMP but optimized for more then quadcore setups ( I7 does quite well with this client, there is a dedicated forum section here but I linked to the evga thread as they have a ready to vmware image available for download there ).

Sorry, just as you think you're well on your way, you find out there are allot more options and some/one of those might be "better" ;)

As you said, take your time, read around, and find out what suits you best.

Good luck!
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:55 pm

Well, one way to find out is to try it. Hey, I'm a newbee that really doesn't know the rules (yet) :lol: I'll let things run for several days to get a decent set of statistics and then play around. If things go up great, if not, like you said, there are a lot of options. I have and still sometimes do work in research, this looks like that to me. Who knows, there might be a white paper here. :wink:
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:18 pm

Followed you link. BOY, there is a lot to learn!
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby uncle fuzzy » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:25 pm

MtM wrote:I know people who have very high ppd, but are running two vm's on each quadcore. In my opinion, even OP contribution is higher as he is not intentionally introducing delays. So, no I don't talk about PPD as 'contribution', I thought we been through this before ;)

This does not always mean slowing down the science. I run Intel quads- 3 Q6600s and a Q9550. On all 4 of them, running a 2-core notfred's VM resulted in higher PPD, and a quicker completion and return, than running a Win SMP on all 4 cores. Running 2 2-core VMs allowed me to more than double the output of my CPUs. Now that we have Player 3, a 4-core VM gives a slight advantage over a pair of 2-core.

Basic math- PPD is proportional to speed of returning the results, therefore, VMs do not slow down the science (depending on hardware). YMMV.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:09 pm

As stated above, a lot to learn including the acronyms. VM - virtual machine?, PPD I learned earlier in the post. notfred's I have seen but have no idea what it is. Win SMP, supplied by Stanford? as opposed to notfred's? Player 3?

Still learning how to read the stats but those look impressive.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby RPryer » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:02 pm

rtbrd wrote:As stated above, a lot to learn including the acronyms. VM - virtual machine?, PPD I learned earlier in the post. notfred's I have seen but have no idea what it is. Win SMP, supplied by Stanford? as opposed to notfred's? Player 3?

Still learning how to read the stats but those look impressive.


VM - yes, virtual machine
notfred's - a VM setup that uses a stripped-down Linux distro to run the Linux SMP client with lower overheads
Win SMP - the Windows SMP client (supplied by Stanford), which gives less PPD than the Linux version
Player 3 - refers to VMWare Player 3, VM software used to run the notfred's setup. Version 2 could only use 2 cores, but version 3 can use all four cores of a quad.
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Re: New to F@H need startup info

Postby rtbrd » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:06 am

Thanx, I need to find an acronym dictionary for this.
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