No non V7 CPU work going out?

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No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:31 am

I still use Ver6.23 for occasional CPU work but am unable to get work for some days.
Has work using a4 core ceased for this client?
I'm not too bothered- as it's not efficient power use, cf. GPU work
I don't like using v7 much [due to lack of config flexibility]- and still doing GPU work well without it, using Systray 6.41r2 OK on GTX 460 @24K ppd very successfully, to date.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby P5-133XL » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:18 am

You do not need to switch to v7 but v6.34+ is the current minimum version needed: http://folding.stanford.edu/home/download2011

V6 uses the same cores as v7 with the exception of Core_17 which is the first post v6 core. Since it is the cores that do the actual work, there shouldn't be any significant PPD difference between v6 and v7 except for that Core_17. Core_17 gives out QRB points for GPU WU's so video cards that are higher performance than the GTX 460 get more points and those of less performance get less PPD with the GTX 460 being about the break even point

Just curious: What is it you think you can't do with v7 that you can with v6? Config inflexibility is not specific enough for me to identify the lack you detect.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:30 am

Going back to first release- I found the start up grab on resources too intrusive. I took advice and tried again later [maybe after an PG update to deal with initial probs from users] but I didn't find it much better. I defaulted back to the more flexible start/stop abilities of single clients and use F@H Spy to follow peogress readily. Suite me- so long as work comes along. I don't think the cores run any differently tbh and can't see why such emphasis is placed on V7 unless it's just to increase production by reducing user choice.
I'll grab a 6.34 update anyway. I couldn't see any posts showing any policy change on this though. Thanks.

[PS I tried the console 6.34 version and same result] Edit: Later- now running OK after reconfiguring. :e)
Last edited by new08 on Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby bollix47 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:41 pm

Version 7 has come a long way since the early days. Now you can run FAHClient without leaving FAHControl running which may have caused your "intrusive" problems. It shouldn't take too long to give it a try and see if those problems have been resolved. You can leave your GPU on v6 and just use v7 for your CPU or use v7 for both. V7 install guide.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby 7im » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:46 pm

V7 and v6 use the same fahcores to do the folding. All the work is done by those same fahcores. So in the end, there is no difference in work load. Each version can be configured to run on one CPU core to all CPU cores.

The only difference is that your 3rd party tools may not have been updated yet to work with V7.

And as mentioned above, v6 is going away, just like v5 and v4, etc. Support for that client, and projects that still run on it are dwindling. Caveat Folder.
Last edited by 7im on Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby bruce » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:48 pm

At the very least, you need to understand that V 6.23 MUST be upgraded to V 6.34 or greater.

Depending on your choice of versions, you are limiting your choices of projects. Gradually projects which will once run on 6.23 will be discontinued. Currently, many projects still run on 6.34. The same thing will happen although very gradually, but there are already a number of current projects which will not run on 6.34, requiring V7 or better.

Look at it from the point of view of a Project Owner. Any new project has a minimum version setting. Once a minimum version is set, there's no incentive to enable a project to run on back-rev clients nor will there have been a reliable beta test of the project on those versions. If there are difficulties running on a back-rev, it's pretty easy to avoid them by exclude those clients.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:01 am

Thanks, guys - it's not that I'm a Luddite in any way :oops: but rather have found flexibility useful in maxing my output.
There's obviously the tendency to get stuck in a rut , of course, and development goes on.
Also- running m/c hard means sometimes stopping and starting readily from the task bar rather than using interfaces when browser gets laggy on occasions.
I have installed V7 using the manual start client [mistake] as it can't hand over to the new control UI as hoped for. I may need to reinstall as haven't seen a config for this anywhere- been busy getting output right.
This is the problem with controllers one is not familiar with but need options.
The only issue I've found is that overall progress is down as GTX460 runs 5 deg lower than V6 on GPU work [13000 unit first up].
This may improve as there's a lot of variance on GPU WUs.
CPU seems to be the same work rate as before -and did readily get the work, anyway.[Original ?]
V6 work,still in hand,runs OK alongside -but at 25% of previous output. Not an interface problem as pausing V7 releases V6 to old output again.
The other 'aside' is that Bionc work [can I say that?] doesn't like to run GPU work with V7 in progress. Their client seems more error prone than F@H's
CPU work isn't bothered either way- on dual core 6600
V7 seems more light touch witha bit less overall production for me- by first looks, but it's def. improved since the first issue, as was said.
I understand that work needs reflect the client upgrades and the throughput on my 'intermediate strength' card is remarkable really -and at good efficiency, also.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby bruce » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:25 pm

Putting aside your choices for GPU folding for the moment, your system has a fixed number of CPUs. V6 can allocate a number of them to a FahCore. V7 can allocate a number of them to a FahCore. BOINC can allocate a number of them to it's processing. The GPU drivers can consume as much as one CPU per GPU. Running one client alongside another can, at times, be a rational decision, but the total should never over-allocate the number of CPUs that you actually have.

The secondary consideration is in how the Quick Return Bonus works. If you're assigned a FAH WU, it's always better to return it as quickly as you can, which means that you should allocate as many of your CPUs as you can to that particular WU, thereby minimizing the elapsed time from WU download to WU completion. BOINC doesn't care if it sucks off some resources while those same resources could be allocated to FAH to speed up the return of an active WU. V6 and V7 don't know (or care) if you've splits your resources between two different WUs, but the total points awarded will be lower.

On the other hand, if you choose to allocate CPU resources to BOINC, be sure to FINISH the any active FAH WUs so nothing it being slowed down. Running FAH for a week and BOINC for a week is a much better allocation of resources than allowing them to compete for your CPUs.

I'm not sure why you think V7 has a light touch. Which V6 projects are you comparing to which V7 projects, and how has your allocation changed? It's a fact that the goal of the default allocation of V7 is to minimize screen-lag whereas the goal of V6 is to use all resources, but you can move the V7 slider to "FULL" as long as you can tolerate any screen-lag that you might encounter. Remember that the original goal of FAH was to use only unused resources which worked fine for the SMP (CPU) client, but once GPU folding was introduced, the operating system was unable to manage GPU folding in a way that backed off quickly when you wanted to use your computer. The so-called "light touch" might be some of the compensating factors that have been incorporated into the DEFAULT settings.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby PantherX » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:21 pm

new08 wrote:...I have installed V7 using the manual start client [mistake] as it can't hand over to the new control UI as hoped for. I may need to reinstall as haven't seen a config for this anywhere- been busy getting output right...

If you state how you would like F@H to start-up and consume your resources, we can help you with configuring V7 to best match your needs.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:47 pm

Maybe I should have said lighter touch..
I prefer to do medical based folding hence do not have a GPU client doing this from Boinc- though one was mooted recently.
The Boinc GPUGrid is too aggressive on resources anyway & on non-preferred work cf F@H- so the current best option is still V6 on GPU giving me 24 kppd on 7623 [running still at V7 upgrade] Good for comparisons.
My current rate in V7 wu 13000 type is ~17kppd but this may be a poor producer- I'm not too bothered- but trying to check best configs.[Been through this before ;) ]- screen lag is indeed not a problem, but output is down a fair bit for this stability.
CPU work rate is poor- but I'm just seeing if more can be done with V7 on this.

For Panther- the client didn't start with the Control initially but now it's working on a WU OK,it may do so later -rather than needing the Console exe file started manually.
The tendency to start both CPU & GPU clients listed still remains and does load work- not ideally needed whilst setting up.
The control UI won't run without being connected & then grabs work. This has always been a bugbear for me with my hands on approach!
I'll let current work progress now rather than lose on restarts and get back later.
Last edited by new08 on Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby PantherX » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:54 pm

I see your point about downloading WUs after a fresh installation. However, a balance is needed since donors may think that nothing is working. Thus, you have 5 minutes to configure your username/passkey/team number before the client automatically starts folding. What I tend to do is to disconnect the LAN cable and take my time configuring the settings to my liking. Once everything is set-up exactly the way I want, I reconnect the LAN cable and start folding away.

The main purpose for V7 is to make it really easy for new donors to install and start folding as easily as possible, yet, it should also cater to the expert. Finding the right balance is a difficult balancing act.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:08 pm

.. & also every boot -the same occurs, annoying if you're doing trial runs. It may be tied to the need to start the Console client initially -so this may iron out later on.
I know from exp. that the clients are more set up for 'easy start' than ever now -and obvious reasons for this. I liked it in the old days better- as a renowned fiddler with settings ;)
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby bruce » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:11 pm

You still didn't state what you want. The original question was about V7 CPU work. My reply focused on CPU work and your most recent response is about GPU work. Let's break it down into 6 categories and have you describe your intentions.
1) V6 CPU work
2) V7 CPU work
3) V6 GPU work
4) V7 GPU work
5) BOINC CPU work
6) BOINC GPU work

Rate each one in importance to you and reasons why you made those choices. If you want a mixture, explain how you wish to balance that mixture. You've given some partial answers to this question, but I we need to understand your overall desires before we can help you accomplish them. What I see is miscommunications because there are too many potential unmatched assumptions. After understanding the overall goals, we can work on them step-by-step.

By default, FAH grabs work. The design assumption is that if you install the client, you want to fold. If that assumption doesn't apply to you, the V7 Client AND the Control program can be started without downloading a WU and/or not resuming work on the current WU. Apparently you have not discovered that option. (V6 will always start folding when you start the client although you can set -oneunit so that it shut down after completing only one WU.) V7 can set the equivalent option dynamically (without restarting the client).
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:22 pm

Bruce- it's late now for me so Thanks for your overview. You're quite right I do all the above but only when work is not available or on a trial basis to see suitabilty or not..
I'm still appraising the running of V7 now and that will take time to complete.
Getting options right is part of the learning process. I don't like failed units -though they just get redone sooner or later.
I will get more familiar with the new setup and report back.
The thread was on V6 CPU work but led to knock on effects. I fully expected it to get relocated.
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Re: No non V7 CPU work going out?

Postby new08 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:23 am

Now that V7 has been running awhile it looks like work for XP machines if fading fast.
Is all future work going to be Core 21?
Maybe if other work is still lurking I can leave V7 running- to catch it as & when?
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