incipient burnout

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incipient burnout

Postby Gorlash » Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:30 am

I'm a little disturbed about this application...
I have following system:
Ryzen 7 3700X, no OC
GTX 1070ti, no OC
32GB RAM
tons of NVMe storage...
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

Normally, my CPU runs at about 40C, +/- some, GPU runs at mid-30C.
When I started up this project, it immediately boosted my CPU to 70C...
CPU cores (at default Medium setting) were running at >50%...
I tried bumping setting down to Light, but cores are still running at 30-50%, and CPU temp is 70C...
I *really* don't want my system running at 70C, 24/7... I want it to last a few years... I'm also retired, and have to pay for my electricity...
Is there some way to gain more-specific control over how this drives my system??
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby JimboPalmer » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:25 am

Welcome to Folding@Home!

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-7-3700x
This CPU has 8 cores, 16 threads. Assuming you are folding on the GPU as well, the default may be 15 threads (F@H calls them cpus)
You did not post the first 200 lines of you log, so I am making stuff up.

In the advanced client, you can set the number of threads, the default is -1 which lets the software decide.

Open FAHControl, and click Configure. Choose Slots and highlight the cpu then click Edit.

In this popup, you can set the number of cpus (threads) from 1 to 15. the higher numbers will use more threads and generate more heat. Click OK and Save until you are out of the configure menu.

If you raise the number of CPUs, it does not take effect until the next Work Unit,, but you may be able to lower the number of CPUs while folding.

I hope this helps

(I, myself, whould not worry about 70C, per the above specs, the limits is 95C, but you did not ask my opinion on this, just how to lower temps)
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby aetch » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:16 am

The "Folding Power" slider bar doesn't actually control the speed your computer folds at. At most it controls the number of cpu threads utilised and when to use them (all the time, when the computer is at idle).

If you want to run the computer cooler I'd suggest looking to other things like disabling precision boost overdrive/turbo in bios, beefing up your cpu cooler from stock and making sure your computer has good overall airflow through it. For the likes of your Graphics card I'd suggest downloading MSI afterburner (it's an overclocking utility) and using it to lower the power limit of your card.
Ryzen 9 3900X, 16GB, RTX 2070 Super, Win 10 Pro, F@H 7.6.21

Image

How to post logs and other useful info
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby Gorlash » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:21 am

Thank ye for the prompt response, @jimboPalmer !!
My first problem was that I hadn't actually looked under start menu, so I didn't know about FAHControl !! All I knew about was the status interfaces which opens in the browser...

I also therefore didn't know about the log; I am enclosing the current log after re-starting the program; I'm still running at 74C, so hopefully this will be useful...
Ummmm... I don't see any way to include an attachment, let me think about this... I presume you really don't want 147 lines of log in-line in the message!!)
https://www.derelllicht.com/files/fah.txt

Okay, I switched it to use only 1 core, stopped/restarted the app; that *does* seem to work, but core is still cruising at 67C, though the one core was only at about 40%...
I don't know why my cooler isn't managing to cool down the cpu, it usually works great with even demanding games, keeping temps down at 40-50C...

Anyway, I then switched it to GPU vs CPU, did OK/SAVE/quit/restart, but according to the Web Control, it is still using the CPU... it doesn't seem to like my GTX 1070 ti, I guess... I *do* have current NVidia drivers.

I'm going to take a break for now, and study this some more in the morning....
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby Gorlash » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:26 am

aetch wrote:The "Folding Power" slider bar doesn't actually control the speed your computer folds at. At most it controls the number of cpu threads utilised and when to use them (all the time, when the computer is at idle).

If you want to run the computer cooler I'd suggest looking to other things like disabling precision boost overdrive/turbo in bios, beefing up your cpu cooler from stock and making sure your computer has good overall airflow through it. For the likes of your Graphics card I'd suggest downloading MSI afterburner (it's an overclocking utility) and using it to lower the power limit of your card.


Hi aetch;
Just a couple of notes: I have a Corsair h100i dual fan cooler, which works very well to keep CPU temps down in the 40-50C range on all games that I've been playing recently; I'm not quite clear on why it isn't managing that with Folding; I'm going to research that further tomorrow morning.

As for GPU, I *do* use MSI afterburner to manage my GPU temps, which it does quite nicely... but GPU temps aren't the issue that I'm dealing with right now!!

I still have to figure out why I couldn't get FAHControl to switch to the GPU instead of CPU; that's something else that I'll research in the morning...
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby JimboPalmer » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:35 am

From your log:
02:01:07: <power v='LIGHT'/>

When power is light, the GPU is never used. I would set it to Full, then set the number pf threads (F@H calls them cpus) in FAHControl.

-nt 8

The number of threads in this WU is still 8

(again, I believe you are trying to 'solve' a nonexistent problem)
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby aetch » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:53 am

You can't transfer unit between cpu and gpu. The scientists running the projects control whether the work units run on the cpu or GPU.

Running FAH on your cpu is quite different from gaming. FAH normally uses the AVX/AVX2 instruction set which really cooks your cpu. Gaming doesn't normally touch the AVX instruction set.
I have a small collection of Corsair closed loop coolers H65/H80/H80i. I also have a collection of air coolers. They all suffer from the cooling block being too small or the heatpipes being oriented the wrong way. Anyway, I found with all of them the cpu was getting hot but the heatsinks weren't.
I'm currently running an Alphacool eisbaer with 240mm radiator, I have PBO disabled and have limited my clock speed to about 3.3GHz. That's about as good as I can do before going to a custom loop. I'm getting temps about ~50C.

EDIT - Something I had forgotten is that in the last 20 years the cpu has had the main compute die located in the middle of the cpu, nearly all coolers are designed to work with this. The Ryzen CPUs are different. They have separate compute and IO dies making up a chiplet design. This has the effect that it pushes the hot compute dies off to one side of the cpu where it is harder for a normal cooler to pull the heat from.
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby debs3759 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:37 am

I'm running on a GTX 1060 3GB, with an i7 6700K. I use Process Lasso to keep the GPU using the 2nd logical core (thread) of the 4th physical core of the CPU. All other logical cores are given over for World Community Grid. Temps of the GPU and all CPU cores are over 70C with the case closed. With the side off the case, temps drop by a few degrees. I use a high end CPU cooler, the Noctua NH-D14. I'll be adding more case fans soon to extract hot air, which will probably drop temp by 3 or 4 degrees over having the case open, and lower the amount of dust sucked in. I'll be setting up a custom loop next month (can't get the GPU block for a couple of weeks), and using a water chiller, to keep the CPU at or below ambient temps.

TLDR: It's normal to see high temps, even with a closed loop, when running distributed computing apps that use AVX(2) instructions.
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby gunnarre » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:22 pm

Also note that after you change the folding power or number of threads, the settings won't take effect until your next Work Unit. Also, it depends on what work units the servers have available - if you want to fold with 8 threads, and the server only have 6-thread WUs available, you'll only be folding on 6 threads AFAIK.
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GTX 1660 Super, GTX 1050 Ti, GTX 950, Radeon HD 7770 + occasional CPU folding in the cold
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby Gorlash » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:15 pm

Thank you all for your insights here!!!! I thought I knew my system pretty well, but much of this is new to me, especially the details about the AVX instruction set....
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby MeeLee » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:21 pm

CPU and GPU temps of below 75C are recommended, and below 70C is ok.
If electric cost is concerning to you, you could do two things,
Either just fold on GPU, as this gets you the highest PPD.
Or, reduce your CPU performance (by disabling PBO in bios, and/or SMT).
By disabling these features, your CPU will still be folding, but more economically, reduce the thermal load as well as your electric bill.
Alternatively you can enable PBO, but limit the TDP of your CPU, by setting it to eco mode, or if yours doesn't have the feature, limit the PBO wattage.
It's a 65W CPU, that can run up to 95W with PBO enabled, and should be able to run down to 35 or 25W.
If you lower the watts value too much, and your pc doesn't boot anymore (not even into Bios), just perform a bios reset, and reset the TDP values to higher.
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby JimboPalmer » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:18 pm

Gorlash wrote:I thought I knew my system pretty well, but much of this is new to me, especially the details about the AVX instruction set....

Early CPUs will use SSE2, Starting with Sandy Bridge, it will use AVX. Starting with Haswell, it will use AVX2 on Core_a8 WUs. For AMD, Jaguar and newer uses AVX and Excavator and newer uses AVX2.

AVX is about double the speed of SSE2, 8 operations at the same time per core instead of 4.
AVX2 can be 60% faster than AVX, as it can do a multiply and an add at the same time in one instruction.

All this performance adds heat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_ ... Extensions
Last edited by JimboPalmer on Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby BobWilliams757 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:35 pm

Not much generates more heat than folding. I tried using a number of torture tests and benchmarks at the same time, and most won't generate the heat that folding does.

So..... reduce threads or get more cooling. It's really the only options if you don't like it running that hot.
Ryzen 2400G bone stock
Slow but quiet and stable

Fold them if you get them!
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby Gorlash » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:46 pm

Okay let me summarize points then...

1. I worried about CPU running at 70C ... my main concern was shorted CPU life... @MeeLee; I see and acknowledge your comments above... and I have read similar comments elsewhere, that the CPU is actually designed run at these temperatures, as long as case fans are cooling the system effectively, it should not be a problem... I just have to convince myself of that!! It's one of those "who is wrong?? everyone else in the world, or me??" moments... I'll think about this further...

I wonder if spreading out the cooling paste a little further would help? Someone above, noted the issue of the chips being more distributed on the Ryzen 7, than they were in earlier chips; the cooling plate on the H100i *easily* covers the entire cpu plate, but I used the 'one dot in the middle' paste technique, which is recommended elsewhere, but *might* not cover the entire CPU plate, in order to provide efficient cooling on this distributed architecture??

If I could pull the CPU temps down another 5C, I would feel *alot* more comfortable, but I will continue to consider whether that actually is important...

2. I initially made comments about cost of electricity... that was an absolute Red Herring!! That was just my anxiety speaking... we have a well-designed solar power installation in our home, and we have generated comfortably more electricity than we consume, in every year of the 5 years that we've had solar... meaning that our electricity is free, and that point simply does not matter... I'm actually sorry I even included those comments in my original post, but it reflects how anxious I initially was about this issue!!

3. However, to address comments about things that I can do to cripple the performance of my machine, in order to pull temps down, that is *not* going to happen... I built this machine for gaming, and it is absolutely spectacular at that!! It runs even the most demanding games (so far) without even really opening both eyes... that is the reason that I own the machine, I will not reduce its gaming ability, in any way, in order to run the folding application...

Again: thank you all so much!! I've rarely gotten so much clear insight into how a system operates, nor received so much thoughtful and detailed insight into my options!! I appreciate, and will go back to applying what I've learned here...
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Re: incipient burnout

Postby aetch » Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:01 am

Basically every Intel and AMD pre-Ryzen processor for the last 20 years
Image

Your Ryzen 7 3700x chip layout, the small red crosshatcched die is your compute die
Image

My Ryzen 9 3900x,chip layout, the two small red crosshatched dies are my compute dies.
Image

H100i Teardown
I tried linking images but they wouldn't pull through.

There also be issues with air trapped in your AIO cooler, a couple of youtube videos
Gamers Nexus original 26min video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbGomv195sk
JayzTwoCents - 16 min clarification video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKwA7ygTJn0

Sources
https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/357 ... oc-support
https://wccftech.com/ryzen-3000-series- ... ick-guide/
https://www.frostytech.com/articles/2665/
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