Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

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7im
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by 7im »

JPinTO wrote:
- V7 client may not be 100% intuitive, but it's a big step in the right direction for easy of installation and upgrade. The switches are still pretty obscure and probably should be listed for easy reference on the client.
This has been a common request, however there are dozens of available switches. They can't put them all in there without also getting to be too obscure. A little insight about which switches you think should be shown in a checkbox might help define the issue and potential solutions a little better... ;)
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JPinTO
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by JPinTO »

The switch solution can be as simple as listing the switches and what they do on a help screen in the client.
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by Jesse_V »

JPinTO wrote:The switch solution can be as simple as listing the switches and what they do on a help screen in the client.
I think 7im's point is that not all the flags can or should be shown, and a good number of the available flags are rarely used. Which flags would you like to see? You should probably consider how useful or common each flag is, and the consequences if it's accidentally selected.
F@h is now the top computing platform on the planet and nothing unites people like a dedicated fight against a common enemy. This virus affects all of us. Lets end it together.
bruce
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by bruce »

Nathan_P wrote:Decisions made by PG regarding hardware and what WU they can run - Not saying the decision was the wrong one for the project but some people will see it as wrong
Unfortunately, I don't see a solution to that one. Insofar as possible, FAH has retained the ability to continue running without upgrading. The Unipocessor cleint still works if that's the hardware you have. Yes, there is peer pressure makes you want to upgrade to the latest and best hardware, but I don't see how we can expect the Pande Group to do anything about it. The computer industry thrives on selling you upgrades and when you decide to, it's only fair for the Pande Group to make good use of it, but that's not really the same thing.
Involvement in the Decision making process - I know we have the DAB but what about the smaller teams, i Also get you can't include every team
I have done my best to consistently read every post on the forum. Some really good ideas come from folks who are not members of the top teams, and I often point out those ideas to the DAB. In some sense, I'm your representative, though there has been no formal announcement of that relationship. I do not report back directly, though, so there's no way for you to see that happening. The DAB is structured as an Advisory board -- that is a way for Dr. Pande to get input from folks. The output from any discussions generally leads to an announcement in the News Blog, not based on private information flowing back to any of the teams -- thus you SHOULD hear nothing from your representative, whether that's me or somebody else.
Errors with WU failures etc, Current examples are the 76xx GPu projects and those 512 byte bigadv WU that just keep cycling through.
For the most part, you're talking about true bugs for which the cause is currently unknown. I can assure you that some very sharp people pay attention to those problems and would very happily fix them if they knew how. You've probably noticed that at least half of what I say on the forum consists of questions for more information aimed a people experiencing a problem. The fact is, these nagging problems don't seem to happen in the lab so the critical piece of information that they need to fix the problem might actually happen on YOUR machine -- we just have to be observant enough to notice it. (I just made a wild guess suggestion about the 512 byte bigadv problem to Kasson about an hour ago. It may turn out to be wrong, but it's something that people with access to the server can look for and it MIGHT help.)
Lack of clients/cores for certain hardware - yes resources are limited but there are some very good coders on this project who would love to help.
Certain parts of FAH are necessarily closed source. There has been some movement toward making potions of the code open source. Stanford asked for help with a viewer a number of years ago and nobody ever responded. With the advent of V7, various monitoring programs can now be upgraded to have control capability and can completely replace FAHControl. Yes, progress is slow, but positive changes are happening.

Unfortunately, in order to certify the scientific results, the code that generates the scientific results must remain closed, and to avoid all kinds of accusations, the code that generates the credits also needs to remain closed.
The points system - People have every opinion on it, all thinking that they are right. Is there a better way?
There will always be squabbles about the unfairness of the points system. Many have made suggestions on how to improve it but when you get right down to the final analysis, nobody has come up with a plan that's really better. People have a way of suggesting points improvements that benefit themselves or their team at the expense of other individuals or other teams. Changing it in one's own self-interest doesn't make it better.
Simba123
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by Simba123 »

Of all the third-party interfaces I have seen, http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=21 ... acker%20v6 by Jedi95 is by far and away the best.

I cannot believe in V7, it is still so difficult to set up. Sure, the basic set up if fine, if you want it to max out your hardware 100% of the time; but virtually any form of customization of its usage is way too complicated.

Having to find your way to the advanced tab and then find instructions for slot options etc is just ridiculous.
Should just be simple check-boxes for the options, and then the value.
maybe have a 'hover over' or ? tab to explain the option.

Agree with others that a proper instruction manual is required for V7; rather than the current situation of various bits and pieces to be found via various different links.

A 'News' Tab. When clicked should either take you to a webpage or open up a tab in V7 that provides updates on the project.

Yes to selective projects! Most people join projects such as this after losing someone to a particular disease. Selfishly or not, they want to focus on that particular disease. Yes, there will need to be some balancing so that the lessor known (but no less important) disease research does not get left behind. Allowing people to focus their efforts towards a particular area will encourage them to stay.

If you want to increase the number of GPU's folding, then you'll definitely need to do something about the points on offer for their work.
Currently in the points per watt race, they lose badly to CPUs. They also, more often than not, lose out in points per hour compared to SMP as well.
Most people see the points as a measure of scientific value of the work completed. More points = more scientific value.
Now we know that this is entirely psychological, but the points competition is a powerful motivator.
7im
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by 7im »

Thank you for the feedback. A couple followup questions...

Which of the 50 or so options should they include as check boxes? This list from the V7 Wiki isn't even complete... Also, a screen saver version was mentioned early, and might fit your "less than max" configuration request. ;) And fixing the as yet mostly non-fuctional CPU and GPU usage sliders would go a long way to fix this as well, without needing any checkboxes. 8-)

There is a V7 Wiki (user guide), and a V7 install guide. How is that spread over many links? Please explain "bits and pieces all over the place" and give examples.

PG has already mentioned a QRB will eventually be implemented for GPUs, which will help to rebalance their points.
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DoctorsSon
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by DoctorsSon »

Most of the people I know just want plug and play.
1. Install
2. Hit fold.
Jesse_V
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by Jesse_V »

DoctorsSon wrote:Most of the people I know just want plug and play.
1. Install
2. Hit fold.
Last time I checked, V7's installation follows this behavior.

1. Install.
2. Asks for optional configuration stuff. The defaults all work fine.
3. Starts folding automatically until you hit Pause or Finish.

The main uniprocessor v6 was even simpler. How then is V7 complicated to set up? IMO, it's some of the aspects after this that may need adjustment.
F@h is now the top computing platform on the planet and nothing unites people like a dedicated fight against a common enemy. This virus affects all of us. Lets end it together.
iceman1992
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by iceman1992 »

Jesse_V wrote:Last time I checked, V7's installation follows this behavior.

1. Install.
2. Asks for optional configuration stuff. The defaults all work fine.
3. Starts folding automatically until you hit Pause or Finish.
I think number 2 is within number 1 :lol: I consider the initial configuration to be a part of the installation.
DoctorsSon
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by DoctorsSon »

Jesse_V wrote:
DoctorsSon wrote:Most of the people I know just want plug and play.
1. Install
2. Hit fold.
Last time I checked, V7's installation follows this behavior.

1. Install.
2. Asks for optional configuration stuff. The defaults all work fine.
3. Starts folding automatically until you hit Pause or Finish.

The main uniprocessor v6 was even simpler. How then is V7 complicated to set up? IMO, it's some of the aspects after this that may need adjustment.
I should have clarified that more.
It was in response to the complaint about V7.
V7 is pretty much plug and play.
bruce
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by bruce »

Simba123 wrote:Of all the third-party interfaces I have seen, http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=21 ... acker%20v6 by Jedi95 is by far and away the best.

I cannot believe in V7, it is still so difficult to set up. Sure, the basic set up if fine, if you want it to max out your hardware 100% of the time; but virtually any form of customization of its usage is way too complicated.
V7 consists of three distinct parts: FAHClient, FAHControl, and FAHViewer. Let's remember that FAHControl is open-source, and 3rd party developers can either write their own front-end or provide enhancements to FAHControl. Let's also remember that V7 is still beta code and there's a long list of enhancement suggestions that will probably be added either by Stanford or by 3rd parties. There are already several good third-party interfaces. If you're objective is to advertise your favorite, that's ok by me, but let's keep that in the 3rd party forum.

If your objective is to compare V6 with V7 let's consider two cases, the novice user and the advanced user. You can't expect either V6 or V7 to provide the max possible utilization for all possible computer configurations. To start with, choosing the right V6 client is much more complicated than choosing the single unified client. Reducing that choice to a single V7 client is a significant improvement. V7 does have a plug-and-play option which does not exist in V6. The V7 client's will choose a REASONABLE set of choices for any combination of hardware features, leaving it up to the advanced Donor to either improve the choices or not. V6 gives you similar advanced configuration options.

Will either V6 or V7 give you the best configuration for your hardware? Perhaps in some cases, but certainly not always. Can an expert tweak their system for better performance? Yes, if you choose to. Are the tweaking options in V6 easier or harder than in V7? Actually, they're remarkable similar. If you first assume that the expert is more familiar with the V6 options, then it's naturally going to seem easier. If the expert is equally unfamiliar with the options of both V6 and V7, then both are rather complicated and probably require an equivalent level of knowledge.

Will V6 be improved? No.
Will V7 be improved? Yes.
Are there already quite a few good enhancement recommendations for V7? Yes.
Can tickets for additional suggestions still be written? Certainly.
Is FAHControl "better" than the 3rd party front-end programs that have been or may be written in the future? Probably not, but it does work.
Does FAHClient provide additional capabilies that allow enhancements to 3rd party tools beyond that provided by V6? Certainly.
Will all front-end programs benefit by being open-sourced? Absolutely.
blacckbox
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by blacckbox »

After reading the thread I don't really have a whole lot to add. Here are a few thoughts anyway:

DOING IT RIGHT:
*Hard scientific results and transparency in sharing these results.

*Sharing F@H resources with researchers around the world.

*Very few technical issues in all the years and platforms I've used. 6.23 was literally set and forget on the boxes at my law office.

*Love the project details in v7. They should be standardized and expanded: A concise paragraph for the layman, followed with details for bio majors.

DOING IT:
*The heat from all these boxes is great in the winter, but killers in the summer. I take older boxes offline for good when summer starts.

*Oh lawdy do I want me a $upermicro quad G34 build...

*'lectricity costs be gettin' me down yo.

*It's weird how difficult it is to explain F@H to someone.

DOING IT ASKEW:
*v7 is a great improvement, but still a bit cryptic. Needs more explanations of acronyms, more checkboxes to toggle, and should eliminate the nonsense with flags. This software should be made such that my grandmother can look at it and understand what is going on. (I'd still have to install it for her though :) )

*GPU lag issues in Windows. Not sure how much latitude PG has over this though, but I was surprised v7 was released to the front page without this issue resolved.

*Related to lag is the default option with 7.1.52 for SMP & GPU usage. If a noob experiences lag, they may simply delete the program instead of spending time to figure out it's a GPU issue and address it.

*Further related to noobs: These install options should all be clearly explained. Not everyone knows what SMP, GPU, or uniprocessor means. There are too many assumptions here on the part of the software.

*Real time visuals of progress on projects. Not just a progress bar, but perhaps a (simulated) 3D model of a structure we're helping to fold/build/understand. There should be indicators in the graphic of exactly where your particular WU is. There should be color coding so that we can see what has been processed, what is being worked on, and what is left to be done.

*GPU support in Linux. This may affect only a small number of folders, but these tend to be power users who contribute disportionately more than an average user.

*GPU support in OSX. The gains may be outweighed by the development effort on this one however.

*Would like more stats about the project in general.

*Everyone in this forum grasps the overarching issue of misfolding proteins. However, to the general public, protein is something you get in meat and a folded protein is a burrito. I feel the project would capture the imagination of the lay-user much better if it concentrated on scary-sounding disease names rather than the more nebulous-sounding 'protein folding'. A few years ago this was my tact when commandeering the computers at my law office. I told everyone the project was looking for a cure for Alzheimer's.

*what campbbri said a few pages back about trying to get hardware review sites such as Anandtech and Tom's Hardware to utilize a F@H benchmark utility sounds brilliant. I would really have liked something like this a few months ago when I was on the lookout for a new GPU.

PS
*What's up with the viewer anyway? I've been folding for about 8 years and have never seen anything other than the demo. I'm not much into pretty graphics, but it really engages a lot of people. Believe it or not I showed the demo to a lawyer at my office. He didn't care about anything else I showed him, but when he saw a 3D molecule moving around on the screen he said "Wow, they're really serious about this." I suspect this is not an uncommon reaction.
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by Jesse_V »

blacckbox, I agree with everything you just said. There is a 3D viewer, but for me it has always shown the demo, and it would be really nice to make it work as normal. I believe this ticket: https://fah-web.stanford.edu/projects/F ... ticket/409 is the one that is holding it back.
blacckbox wrote:However, to the general public, protein is something you get in meat and a folded protein is a burrito.
:lol: So much win! Made my day. :D
F@h is now the top computing platform on the planet and nothing unites people like a dedicated fight against a common enemy. This virus affects all of us. Lets end it together.
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by Grandpa_01 »

Probably the first thing that should be done is make v7 easy to install on all OS not just the most popular ones. If people have a hard time installing it they are not going to use it. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20692&start=105#p217079
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20692&start=105#p217123

To answer 7im's question above a simple link to that wiki that he provided would probably suffice very simple answer (or have a dedicated page it goes to) then click on your choices and v7 installs them. And the quote that JesieV sited above from blackbox pretty much sums it up (make it simple). The problems v7 have are pretty simple if you do not try to make them more complex than they really are you do not have to overcrowd things.

And by the way blackbox it took me a while to stop laughing when I read that line, Thanks :lol:
Image
2 - SM H8QGi-F AMD 6xxx=112 cores @ 3.2 & 3.9Ghz
5 - SM X9QRI-f+ Intel 4650 = 320 cores @ 3.15Ghz
2 - I7 980X 4.4Ghz 2-GTX680
1 - 2700k 4.4Ghz GTX680
Total = 464 cores folding
7im
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Re: Discussion: what is holding F@h back?

Post by 7im »

Easy to install is not synonymous with a setup page with 50 possible chech boxes...
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