Change in BA requirements

[Ravage7779]

The PG hasn't changed much, if at all since I started folding in 2008. This is pretty much a rehash of the discussion over instituting a qrb bonus to manipulate human behavior using points.

Quick history lesson...the a2 cores ran the choice 1920 point units at that time. You got more pph running 2 units simultaneously, on a quad core chip, each unit consuming two cores, than you did running one unit on all four cores.

The PG wanted the faster return of one unit, than they did a slower return of two units. Big, huge, gargantuan thread ensued with all kinds of teeth gnashing about what to do.

My argument was simple. If you want to change a behavior in a human, don't fight human nature, work with it. Make the one unit being returned faster, a better points proposition. Humans are naturally competitive and will go for this, even if they say they won't. And thats exactly what they did with the qrb. And that's what happened. It happened again with BA. Better points proposition. People invested in big iron.

Seems the reverse is starting to happen. People for whatever reasons are unhappy with the project and are leaving. Core counts are down quite a bit. At what point do the researchers notice that their project is going to take too long to run? When do they start fighting over a dwindling resource? At some point, the core count is going to make somebody sit up and notice.

Want change? Shut them all down. Can't run a massive simulation without a supercomputer. Guaranteed you will have PG sitting at the table listening intently.

Till then, they still have their supercomputer, and will do as they please with it. Simple as that. Human nature.

[Adak]

@ Khali:

I'd like to see FAH running full speed ahead. I'm a fan of PG (who make the wu's possible) AND a fan of the folders, (who run the simulation for the study).

I don't like the BA threshold being raised twice within 90 days, on short notice, and I don't like the lack of an explanation for it, or of a road map for the next 12 months. I believe the BA folders have gone FAR above any expectations, to provide premium hardware for this FAH project, and deserve it.

From the folders replies in this thread, I don't like the overly emotional responses, the talk of a a strike, or the requests for "full transparency", as if a very technical research project was a simple "Feed the Hungry" type of charity.

We need BOTH sides to make FAH a success. One side alone, is useless.

[bruce]

I'd like to see FAH running full speed ahead. I'm a fan of PG (who make the wu's possible) AND a fan of the folders, (who run the simulation for the study).

I don't like the BA threshold being raised twice within 90 days, on short notice, and I don't like the lack of an explanation for it, or of a road map for the next 12 months. I believe the BA folders have gone FAR above any expectations, to provide premium hardware for this FAH project, and deserve it.

From the folders replies in this thread, I don't like the overly emotional responses, the talk of a a strike, or the requests for "full transparency", as if a very technical research project was a simple "Feed the Hungry" type of charity.

We need BOTH sides to make FAH a success. One side alone, is useless.

i couldn't have said it better myself ... but nobody listens to me any more.

[Bill1024]

You can't serve two masters.

[Khali]

You know a lot of this animosity and back and forth could be ended very easily. All that has to happen is some one in authority from PG needs to step up and say why they changed the BA like they did and what they are considering to do about the other donor issues that have been raised here. Then give a set date when they will report back on any changes they are looking at making. Notice I did not say a set date on when the changes are going to be made. But a set date they will get back to us with more meaningful information. End the stonewalling and the indifferent silence hoping the issue will just go away like it has in the past. It isn't going to this time, as indicated by the dwindling donor count.

So far we have one side bringing up issues and another with nothing but plausible explanations with no facts to go with said explanations. Bruce, 7im, and Adak have done their best to come up with possible answers and explanations out of loyalty. Yet how long can you stay loyal to a project when those in charge don't back you up with some real answers? Those three are like some politicians press secretary trying to explain away some scandal when they have no clue what really happened and the boss isn't talking to them because he is too busy hiding in a closet hoping it will all just go away.

As Bill said a whole lot of posts ago, "say what your going to do and then do what you said." Right now PG isn't saying a bloody thing.

[ChristianVirtual]

... I don't like the overly emotional responses, the talk of a a strike, ....

We need BOTH sides to make FAH a success. One side alone, is useless.

Not like it either, but can partially understand. What I (as folding rookie) learned from this thread is that the conflict is rather an old one; many years old. And it escalate once more. Its like in some marriages: A "counseling", at least talking, can help to avoid a divorce.

But the sound of silence is too loud.

[craigyas]

Personally, while I don't like the raise of cores, as my recent 4p will be knocked out just as it got running, I just took a look at kakao active folding numbers, and its at 32k.

Now I'm no expert, and I don't pretend to really know what I'm talking about in regards to this, but it seems as if the number of folders is down far lower than PG would like to tell us with their 50 day criteria....

I think at this point transparency is more important than ever, and every day PG stays silent on the issue they are losing more folders, and not just the little guys, the people in this thread who use their powerful machines to further the cause of science .....
Not totally transparency, as they don't have time to explain every little aspect of every project, but the basics would be nice, a lot of us have a college education you know, we can understand quite a bit ^_^

At this point the conversation just seems to be people repeating the same points over and over (like I probably just did)

But this isn't a time for people to pull out of the project, its a time where PG and the Top donors need to converse, and for the little guys to be recognized too, the reason more people don't fold SMP, is because they have to leave a normal CPU running for over 24 hours at max to get a few thousand points.... most people aren't BIGADV folders....

But the BigADV folders are special to the cause, they are people who have chosen to go out of their way for the betterment of science, and for those of you who say that they should just 'deal with what the coach says' I say, Boo on you!

There are common everyday people who contribute in tiny amounts, but there are thousands of, and then there are people like Grandpa, who do the work of thousands....

PG needs to decide if they want to keep the big guys, or try and reel in many more little guys
But in this mans opinion, they need to do both!

People seem to be getting really impatient, and they feel like they aren't being listened to even though they are devoting their time and money to these people.... people who have a good cause, and a good program, but people who don't understand proper communication between the people who support their program, the people, who without them, their program would be little more than a dream....

Till that day when a proper open channel is created, we'll be waiting!


I do hope some of this made sense....
Cheers!

[tear]

Might as well do it now --

Want change? Shut them all down. Can't run a massive simulation without a supercomputer. Guaranteed you will have PG sitting at the table listening intently.

Clients are stopped until further notice.

[Bill1024]

You know a lot of this animosity and back and forth could be ended very easily. All that has to happen is some one in authority from PG needs to step up and say why they changed the BA like they did and what they are considering to do about the other donor issues that have been raised here. Then give a set date when they will report back on any changes they are looking at making. Notice I did not say a set date on when the changes are going to be made. But a set date they will get back to us with more meaningful information. End the stonewalling and the indifferent silence hoping the issue will just go away like it has in the past. It isn't going to this time, as indicated by the dwindling donor count.

So far we have one side bringing up issues and another with nothing but plausible explanations with no facts to go with said explanations. Bruce, 7im, and Adak have done their best to come up with possible answers and explanations out of loyalty. Yet how long can you stay loyal to a project when those in charge don't back you up with some real answers? Those three are like some politicians press secretary trying to explain away some scandal when they have no clue what really happened and the boss isn't talking to them because he is too busy hiding in a closet hoping it will all just go away.

As Bill said a whole lot of posts ago, "say what your going to do and then do what you said." Right now PG isn't saying a bloody thing.

I would rather they not do exactly that !!!lol I would prefer they keep the 24 core for more than just a few months . I did mean give a clear concise answers and say what you mean and mean what you say.
But not be so rigid and set in stone that there can't be some discussion and a compromise.
Most likely what it is going to boil down to is, Are we willing to keep buying upgrades. This is a personal choice everyone will have to make.

[billford]

You can't serve two masters.

I wasn't aware that anybody on this project had any "masters"…

A suggestion was given somewhere to let the pilot get on with flying the plane, but imo it's a poor analogy. A better one would be from rowing- by all means let the cox get on with steering the boat, but don't keep the oarsmen (who are the ones giving the cox something to do) in the dark about the route.

Note- I don't do BA so this topic is of indirect interest only.

[kerryd]

Might as well do it now --

Want change? Shut them all down. Can't run a massive simulation without a supercomputer. Guaranteed you will have PG sitting at the table listening intently.

Clients are stopped until further notice.

Welcome to the party glade its no longer us over a evga that is on strike from fah.and welcome jinn
PG post or its getting out of hand for you. <<<<
Now there is a few good posts , I would not still be looking here if I did not have hope. But {PG] You are running out of time well fore me any why
When will PG get it together band realize the losing ppl right and left .On top of my 4p's will never fold SMP for more the a day or or 2 a month and that is a maybe.. A lot easier to just gpu Fold 3 days a month. YA I fold for team EVGA but folding bucks will no longer go to folding but to crunching .
I really did not like this to happen. but PG you need get your shit together. What you are doing is not right but in your rights.But its in my rights to stop folding.

OK all you fan boys your turn but just because your a fan boy will not make what you post right or wrong.And MODS you got Some thing to ask POST it do not PM it. You will not change my mind PMing me


YOU ROCK JINN hope you get better soon

Edit jinn is some one we fold for her stopping fah is saying a lot.
She got a 4p from team evga and not sure but I think it could still fold after core count upgrade
she or ppl like here was why folded. She helped me more then any one well I was getting my 4p's up.
Wish her well and hope she gets better ,


Kerry

[kerryd]

Only got one more thing to say good lock FAH because you will never get to 1 mil ppl folding lol you got to get to 100 k first. Look at Grandpa_01 post on evga forums.
Fha every other group out the is growing you are not and that is on your PR no PR = no one folding for you'
Go a head ignore Whats going on this time if you want the program to lose a big % of your donors lol .All I really Know is my 4p's will not fold smp nether will any other cpu I have. its gpu folding stops my other cpu's but if I can not do all the above I will not do any.
Why is it gp;u folding stops smp folding
Waiting on you PG



Kerry

Damn wish I could write better but I suck at putting words down but I do get the jest of it down.

[davidcoton]

Here's some more thoughts from a non-BA folder (can't afford it!).

First, I agree absolutely that PG's communication skills are not fit for purpose. Perhaps the intention to hire PR will help. It would have been better done before to BA announcement, but we can't change history.

PG want to push SMP (non-BA). Is there really a backlog, or is that just inference? Clearly, demoted BA rigs could contribute here. Is the science contribution so significantly less than BA? Points (which are supposed to reflect science value) say so, which justifies hard feelings amongst BA owners. But how many BA units will be available? Is the rise in BA requirements intended to balance supply and demand? Was the BA points bonus just too generous? On the other side, core17 has probably boosted GPU folding -- and a (large?) percentage of GPUs folding Core17 will take a CPU core off SMP. Again, do the points (between Core17 and SMP) truly reflect science value? Because if they do, SMP will decline and GPU increase. Would changing SMP points correct this? Possibly it will attract more SMP rigs, but possibly at the cost of moving points away from a science value base.

The above shows the holes in my knowledge -- points reflected many times in this thread. PG please communicate.

Adak and Bruce, keep up your voices of reason. I (for one) am listening, just (until now) couldn't put together anything worth saying (and maybe still haven't ). I for one will not stop folding, although another PG communications failure could change that. But in the absence of forward-looking information from PG, future increases in contribution will be GPU not SMP, because it gives most points (science value) per pound -- and UK hardware and power prices are generally higher than in the USA.

David

[kerryd]

Here's some more thoughts from a non-BA folder (can't afford it!).

First, I agree absolutely that PG's communication skills are not fit for purpose. Perhaps the intention to hire PR will help. It would have been better done before to BA announcement, but we can't change history.

PG want to push SMP (non-BA). Is there really a backlog, or is that just inference? Clearly, demoted BA rigs could contribute here. Is the science contribution so significantly less than BA? Points (which are supposed to reflect science value) say so, which justifies hard feelings amongst BA owners. But how many BA units will be available? Is the rise in BA requirements intended to balance supply and demand? Was the BA points bonus just too generous? On the other side, core17 has probably boosted GPU folding -- and a (large?) percentage of GPUs folding Core17 will take a CPU core off SMP. Again, do the points (between Core17 and SMP) truly reflect science value? Because if they do, SMP will decline and GPU increase. Would changing SMP points correct this? Possibly it will attract more SMP rigs, but possibly at the cost of moving points away from a science value base.

The above shows the holes in my knowledge -- points reflected many times in this thread. PG please communicate.

Adak and Bruce, keep up your voices of reason. I (for one) am listening, just (until now) couldn't put together anything worth saying (and maybe still haven't ). I for one will not stop folding, although another PG communications failure could change that. But in the absence of forward-looking information from PG, future increases in contribution will be GPU not SMP, because it gives most points (science value) per pound -- and UK hardware and power prices are generally higher than in the USA.

If you can not afford it and have nothing to add stay out of it.
David

If you can not afford it and have nothing to add stay out of it
As for this HAHAHAHAHA
Adak and Bruce, keep up your voices of reason. I (for one) am listening,
Bruce is ok but for his PMs. trying to push his side I can see that though , not that he likes what gets sent back to him
Adak, Now that is a long stories and I would rather not go into it here or anyplace,all I will say is gran of salt or less I woulkd take the salt over Adak,
Mods please delete last line if not with in TOS and pm reason if deleted

[billford]

I for one will not stop folding, although another PG communications failure could change that.

Same here… and another failure is apparent. I wasn't too bothered about the recent stats failure, computers fall over occasionally. Then I picked up this on RSS:

We’ve been doing work on the FAH backend servers. We had to take the stats down for a bit longer than we liked. They’re back up now. Sorry for the delay in getting those points recorded.

(http://folding.stanford.edu/home/backend-work/):

In other words it wasn't a breakdown, it was deliberate. Did nobody at PG have a few minutes spare to post that here? Not impressed.

and UK hardware and power prices are generally higher than in the USA.

Ain't that the truth