Lower PPD with several projects

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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby MeeLee » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:52 am

Ichbin3 wrote:
uyaem wrote:my throttled system (excluding monitors) consumes around 260W at the plug.

unbelievable ...
Mine has 65W with Ryzen 2600 and 2080 Super in throttled mode.


It's not unheard of to see those 250+W numbers on a 3900x or 3950x with PBO enabled.
The 105W TDP is just for the CPU, not the memory controller, Infinity fabric, or USB hubs (essentially north/South bridge-part built into the cpu).
Then there's the motherboard trying to compete with other board manufacturers, by increasing power delivery to the CPU, to keep it running past it's boost speed.
Just CPU stress tests can lead to 260W at the wall, 200W with fine tuning and 2133MHZ ram (you can lower voltage on the CPU and SOC by a lot.

That being said, if you are just GPU folding from a higher end Ryzen 3000 series CPU, you may have purchased the wrong CPU.
Not only doesn't CPU speed above 3,5Ghz matter at all for GPU folding, the insane core count is just a waste if you're only feeding 2 or 3 GPUs.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby uyaem » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:10 pm

Agreed, I locked my CPU to 3800 and could take it down by 0.3V (to 1.05V) with no issues ever.
PPD vary, depending on project, between 210k and 350k.

@Ichbin3
I find 65W at the socket for Ryzen 2600 and 2080 super impossible... you almost have a perpetuum mobile there... I think there's a digit missing (should probably be 265W? for your system?)
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Ichbin3 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 pm

Maybe I got the word 'throttled' translated wrong and we are not at the same page?
My 65W means - my system has nothing to do. CPU --> 0%, GPU --> 0%.
Asus Z87-A, i5-4570, RTX 2080Ti_Rev.A@200W, Mint 19.3
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby uyaem » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Ichbin3 wrote:Maybe I got the word 'throttled' translated wrong and we are not at the same page?
My 65W means - my system has nothing to do. CPU --> 0%, GPU --> 0%.

Ah okay that makes sense, this value is ~100W for mine.
By throttled I mean "reduced power", as in limiting both CPU and GPU to get more "science per Watt" :)
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby lafrad » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:00 pm

Looks like the PPD across the board is far lower recently: https://folding.extremeoverclocking.com ... ary.php?s=

My CPU's seem to be the same, but my GPU's are 1/2 the PPD as they used to be. Initially I thought it was my system, but the workload and software must have shifted on the GPU side...
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Ichbin3 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:49 pm

I can't confirm that from my side.
My client-type is beta and there has nothing changed in the daily PPD of my GPU.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Neil-B » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 pm

There are a number of important projects under test that are vary small and don't fully utilise fast GPUs and therefore this is impacting the high end, high PPD, high WU throughput GPUs ... This impact could show both on individual installations and overall stats.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Ichbin3 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:51 am

Ichbin3 wrote:I can't confirm that from my side.
My client-type is beta and there has nothing changed in the daily PPD of my GPU.

I have to revise that, PPD have gone worse even on beta.
Projects up from 226545 atoms like the 16600 give a decent PPD, but it seems there are not so many of them anymore.
Will that change in the forseeable future?
Actually, I'm thinking of giving up on my 2080TI, because it is running so low PPD that it makes no sense and is a huge wasting of power.
The 2080 SUPER is giving nearly the same profitability but is much cheaper.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby JohnChodera » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:22 pm

> There are a number of important projects under test that are vary small and don't fully utilise fast GPUs and therefore this is impacting the high end, high PPD, high WU throughput GPUs ...

Just a quick note here: On the 134xx project series to support the COVID Moonshot open drug discovery effort, we're still refining the GPUSpecies restrictions to make sure that WUs with small systems don't end up on fast GPUs they can't take advantage of. 13414-5 is the latest series here, but we're still seeing some RUN-to-RUN variation we're attempting to track down and mitigate. You should see more refinements as we make further progress here.

Thanks so much for bearing with us!

~ John Chodera // MSKCC
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby MeeLee » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:44 pm

Ichbin3 wrote:
Ichbin3 wrote:I can't confirm that from my side.
My client-type is beta and there has nothing changed in the daily PPD of my GPU.

I have to revise that, PPD have gone worse even on beta.
Projects up from 226545 atoms like the 16600 give a decent PPD, but it seems there are not so many of them anymore.
Will that change in the forseeable future?
Actually, I'm thinking of giving up on my 2080TI, because it is running so low PPD that it makes no sense and is a huge wasting of power.
The 2080 SUPER is giving nearly the same profitability but is much cheaper.


If you're running Windows, use MSI Afterburner, EVGA XOC, or Zotac FireStorm, to adjust the power curve on your GPU.
At 160-180W the 2080Ti still performs significantly fast on fast WUs, but saves a lot of power on the lower atom count WUs.
I wouldn't take that GPU much below 160W, where it'll become slower than a 2080 at similar wattage.
All the other GPUs, 2060 to 2080 Super, you can lower all the way to 125Watts.
While they do suffer a performance penalty, still a 2080 Super is going to be faster than a 2060 at 125W; and even faster than a 2060 at 160W.
The 2080Ti might on low atom count, be able to be dropped down to like 140 watt minimum, before serious throttling issues occur, but at those wattages, serious throttling will occur on high atom count as well.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby bruce » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:34 am

Ichbin3 wrote:I can't confirm that from my side.
My client-type is beta and there has nothing changed in the daily PPD of my GPU.
I have to revise that, PPD have gone worse even on beta.

For years and years, there has been a persistent rumor which is untrue that using the beta flag gave you higher PPD because the projects run faster.

Every project goes through Beta, then Advanced, and finally full FAH. The speed does not change.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Ichbin3 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:17 pm

MeeLee wrote:The 2080Ti might on low atom count, be able to be dropped down to like 140 watt minimum, before serious throttling issues occur, but at those wattages, serious throttling will occur on high atom count as well.

Sure it does.
Still - from my research - @140W my 2080 Ti has the best effiecency - means the best PPWatt.
140W is the peak, before and after the PPW drops, at lower and higher wattage.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby MeeLee » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:00 am

bruce wrote:
Ichbin3 wrote:I can't confirm that from my side.
My client-type is beta and there has nothing changed in the daily PPD of my GPU.
I have to revise that, PPD have gone worse even on beta.

For years and years, there has been a persistent rumor which is untrue that using the beta flag gave you higher PPD because the projects run faster.

Every project goes through Beta, then Advanced, and finally full FAH. The speed does not change.

Probably was true, when core 21 was the standard core, and core 22 was only in Beta.

Ichbin3 wrote:
MeeLee wrote:The 2080Ti might on low atom count, be able to be dropped down to like 140 watt minimum, before serious throttling issues occur, but at those wattages, serious throttling will occur on high atom count as well.

Sure it does.
Still - from my research - @140W my 2080 Ti has the best effiecency - means the best PPWatt.
140W is the peak, before and after the PPW drops, at lower and higher wattage.

You and I are on opposite teams here.
Check your GPU frequencies when you're folding, and see how much they drop at what wattage.
And take into account that you could have been running a 2080 or 2080Super at 140W, where a 2080Ti is only marginally faster, but almost twice the price.
All my research indicates, that running a 2080 Ti under 160W isn't recommended.
I get 4 to 4,4M PPD out of a 2080 Ti at a mere 200-220W.
At 140W, you should at least get 3.1M PPD out of a 2080Ti if you compared the results.
I highly doubt you could actually get 3M PPD at 140W. You'll need at least 20W higher.
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Re: Lower PPD with several projects

Postby Ichbin3 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:02 am

MeeLee wrote:You and I are on opposite teams here.

Not necessarily.
Maybe we are talking about different topics.
It seems you want to maximise your output and cost of power is not so important, maybe because it is cheap where you live.
May way is about cost-efficiency - means the highest output (PPD) relating to the cheapest cost (power + depreciation of the GPU)

First this hits the 2080Ti, no doubt.

Cost-efficiency means for me to hit the peak of the PPDPW-curve, also because power here is nearly the most expensive in Europe as I wrote before.
This is at 140W. Of course I could fold at 200W and would get a decent more PPD but I decided not to because of what I wrote.
In addition, at higher power the fan has to work more and the GPU gets noisy, more than I want to have it.
At 140W I can set it manually to 1,400 rpm and the temp stays at 64°C.
MeeLee wrote:Check your GPU frequencies when you're folding, and see how much they drop at what wattage.

Yea, I can see that and it matches the output of PPD.
Code: Select all
2080Ti, project 13414, 89k atoms
         
GPU   average PPD   Freq   PPDPWatt
130   2672000       1425   20554
135   2842000       1455   21052
140   2928000       1470   20914
145   2980000       1500   20552
150   3035000       1530   20233
160   3100000       1590   19375
180   3274000       1635   18189
200   3430000       1695   17150
220   3577000       1740   16259

MeeLee wrote:where a 2080Ti is only marginally faster, but almost twice the price.

Not here.
I paid €679 for a new 2080SUPER which I returned.
The 2080Ti was about € 905 unused and with warranty from a shop at ebay.
MeeLee wrote:And take into account that you could have been running a 2080 or 2080Super at 140W, where a 2080Ti is only marginally faster

Also not my findings.
I don't have data from a 13414@2080SUPER, but the 14467 has more atoms and should even perform better.
Code: Select all
2080SUPER, project 14467, 192k atoms   
   
GPU W   PPD   PPDPWatt
105   1342760   12788
110   1624006   14764
115   1678281   14594
120   1844994   15375
125   1981595   15853
130   2042271   15710
135   2064308   15291
140   2098526   14989
165   2177989   13200
200   2243710   11219
230   2289595   9955


MeeLee wrote:I get 4 to 4,4M PPD out of a 2080 Ti at a mere 200-220W.

Than you are a lucky one.
I havn't seen this kind of projects for a while.
The largest and fastest performing one for me now is the 16600 and @220W I could get merely 4 Mill.
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