Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

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Robby_Firefox
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Hardware configuration: Homebuilt Windows 10
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On 31 Mar 2020, installed a GigaByte GEFORCE GTX 1660 GPU
Location: Madison, AL

Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by Robby_Firefox »

Hello,

I am the administrator of our Windows 10 home computer, where FAH is running. At the present if one of my family members restarts this machine, FAH will not automatically resume folding. I have lost a day or more of production because I have not caught this soon after a restart. :(

See the below link about this problem discussed last year. Noticed that bruce mentioned a future version of FAH will eliminate that issue. Also do remember that if I were to install FAH as a service, the graphic portion (where the vast amount of my points are generated) does not work.

viewtopic.php?f=108&t=36074&p=343713&hilit=properly+install+on+windows+10#p343713

Could I let FAH install itself in c:\Program Files (x86)\FAHClient? My installation has that, and also has a c:\ProgramData\FAHClient where the work material resides. Thus it seems that FAH should start without me having to login too. If there are suggestions out there to remedy this, please pass them along.

Thanks,
Robby
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aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

7.6.21 installs to the data directory "c:\ProgramData\FAHClient" to allow any user of the computer to run the FAH client but it still needs someone to log on to the computer to run it.
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gunnarre
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by gunnarre »

Also it should be a physical login; if you log in via a Remote Desktop connection, GPU work units will only start while you are actively connected. If you log in at the keyboard, you can safely lock the session and Folding@Home will keep on working even with the screen off.
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Robby_Firefox
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:18 pm
Hardware configuration: Homebuilt Windows 10
Intel Core i7-4770 ~ started in early 2014 or 2015
32 GB RAM (up from 8 GB in 2018)
64-Bit Operating System
On 31 Mar 2020, installed a GigaByte GEFORCE GTX 1660 GPU
Location: Madison, AL

Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by Robby_Firefox »

Follow up.

I am going to try a reinstall tomorrow morning after all tasks are complete. Newer CPU jobs are really taxing it, my I7-4770 is showing it's age. The addition of a Gigabyte GEForce GTX 1660 early last year is really helping on the GPU end! Have the system slightly underclocked because of heating issues, will go back to normal speed sometime next month as cooler temperatures begin to take hold. Before doing this, a few questions...

Do I install only for one user, or for everyone who uses this PC? (Since the work directory is not under c:\users\{name}\etc... anymore, this may do the trick?)
Do not install as a "service" - correct? Doing that would loose GPU calculations.

Any other steps to consider?

Thanks,
Robby
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aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

Install for everyone.
The C:\ProgramData folder is common to all users and will ensure the FAH client setup is consistent and continues the same work units with the same progress regardless of who is logged in.
The C:\Users\<username>\AppData is individual to each user and would have given different work units and levels of progress depending on who was logged in.


Consideration - CPU thread/cores used
The i7-4770 is a 4 core/8 thread cpu.
By default the CPU slot is set to use -1 (negative one) threads. This is a setting which allows the client to grab as many threads as it can, minus a thread for each gpu.
I would suggest setting the cpu core/thread count to a value from 4 to 6. This is to give the GPU and the OS a bit more breathing room and make your computer a bit more usable during normal use.
At least play around with it and monitor your GPU PPD and general handling of the machine.
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aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

gunnarre wrote:Also it should be a physical login; if you log in via a Remote Desktop connection, GPU work units will only start while you are actively connected. If you log in at the keyboard, you can safely lock the session and Folding@Home will keep on working even with the screen off.
Small correction. Remote desktop - don't logoff, disconnect it. The session will remain active and FAH will continue to fold.
I run my folding machines completely headless. For a while I ran my Ryzen system without a display device of any kind.
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Robby_Firefox
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:18 pm
Hardware configuration: Homebuilt Windows 10
Intel Core i7-4770 ~ started in early 2014 or 2015
32 GB RAM (up from 8 GB in 2018)
64-Bit Operating System
On 31 Mar 2020, installed a GigaByte GEFORCE GTX 1660 GPU
Location: Madison, AL

Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by Robby_Firefox »

Thanks for helpful hints. Will try modifying the CPU core/thread values and see how the machine performs.

Because of security issues, have not entertained allowing remote connections to the PC. Is this a local remote connection, or one from another location? May consider trying that.

Cheers!
Robby
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MeeLee
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by MeeLee »

aetch wrote:Install for everyone.
The C:\ProgramData folder is common to all users and will ensure the FAH client setup is consistent and continues the same work units with the same progress regardless of who is logged in.
The C:\Users\<username>\AppData is individual to each user and would have given different work units and levels of progress depending on who was logged in.


Consideration - CPU thread/cores used
The i7-4770 is a 4 core/8 thread cpu.
By default the CPU slot is set to use -1 (negative one) threads. This is a setting which allows the client to grab as many threads as it can, minus a thread for each gpu.
I would suggest setting the cpu core/thread count to a value from 4 to 6. This is to give the GPU and the OS a bit more breathing room and make your computer a bit more usable during normal use.
At least play around with it and monitor your GPU PPD and general handling of the machine.
Depends on how he 'underclocks' the CPU.
If via Bios he's able to lower the CPU voltage to a stable voltage, he can actually lower temperature without losing any performance at all, or a bit further, losing only few Mhz of boost frequency, vs the temperature drop he's getting from the new setting.
Usually just a few to 100Mhz lower boost frequency, might result in a 10C drop if he originally was running the CPU at 90-95C. or a 5C drop if he was running around 70-80C originally.
Temperatures usually lower quickest from 90C to 80c, and it'll be a bit harder to drop it from 80 to 70C, and even harder from 70C to 60C and so on, without losing massive performance, or the CPU becoming unstable...

If voltage adjustment isn't possible, (the BIOS on such PCs usually don't have much eco control on those early boards), a mild manual underclock on all cores may actually be more beneficial than freeing a thread to lower temperatures.
(that is, if ducting, better case ventilation, and better CPU cooler have all already been exploited).
On many Intel CPUs, releasing 1 thread to the OS is the same as releasing 2 or 3 in terms of lowering temperature; as the entire chiplet doesn't power down, but WUs processing threads will still cycle through them.
Sure a few degrees it may go down, but on some Intel CPUs I've ran, the difference wasn't noticeable until you can actually disable an entire chiplet (usually in bios, where you can disable at least 4 threads or more, for a much lower power consumption).
Granted, mine were 6th and 7th gen CPUs.
I used to disable 1 thread on a quad core system, and the CPU would still use about 98% of prior power draw, but once I disabled a second thread, it dropped down more significantly.

As a simple example to illustrate performance of 7 threads at a lower frequency, vs 6 threads at full frequency would be this:
Imagine if boost clock speeds go down from 3,6Ghz to 3,5Ghz due to underclocking (to keep temps under control), one could say that overall CPU processing gets lowered by 100Mhz per thread (x 7 threads = 700Mhz); all the while having 1 thread more to work with than with the second solution.
7 threads at 3500Mhz vs 6 threads at 3600Mhz is simple math: 7 x 3,6 = 25.2Ghz vs 6 x 3.6Ghz = 21.6Ghz
7 threads perform higher, and in most cases stay cooler too.

Another part is that using 6 threads, the RAM usage will be mostly idle.
7 threads, and RAM usage will increase (but still mostly idle).
A system using more threads, is more optimized.
I believe we did some testing a while ago on folding and data crunching, and quite often we'd find that 10 cores 20 threads is about where RAM usage gets overloaded on a quad channel memory system, and threads will start queueing.
The 3900x sometimes gets threads queueing, which is why it performs about the same on 20 threads as 24 threads.
Once you get more than 20 threads, it's best to buy a higher than quad channel motherboard for memory, although the 3950x still runs ok on quad channel, but overall performance on 32 vs 24 threads is very close... anyway..


Third, The 1660 gets 1 thread assigned for GPU, but in actuality it's only using about a third to half of a thread.
It'll show up as 1 thread at 100% (or 1 thread at 50% + 1 thread at 25%, because it's a hyperthreading CPU), but if you look at the kernel data it's using much less than a full thread, and can easily run on a single thread 1 to 1,5Ghz without being bottlenecked.
That leaves Windows with at least half a thread to work with, which is enough for background tasks, and basic OS functionality.
aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

MeeLee wrote:Depends on how he 'underclocks' the CPU.
I made no comment on the underclocking of a processor. That was the OP.
I do it on my own systems for heat, noise and power draw reasons but I did not suggest or pass comment on it here.

I suggested assigning less cores/threads to the cpu slot to give the computer room to breath in other places as it's still a general use computer.

Ultimately, the computer in question is neither mine nor yours and we should not be pushing him to do things that, although we may do, the OP may not be comfortable with.
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gunnarre
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by gunnarre »

aetch wrote: Small correction. Remote desktop - don't logoff, disconnect it. The session will remain active and FAH will continue to fold.
I run my folding machines completely headless. For a while I ran my Ryzen system without a display device of any kind.
Thanks. Does that work with the MacOS RDC app too?
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aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

gunnarre wrote:Thanks. Does that work with the MacOS RDC app too?
I don't know.
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Robby_Firefox
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:18 pm
Hardware configuration: Homebuilt Windows 10
Intel Core i7-4770 ~ started in early 2014 or 2015
32 GB RAM (up from 8 GB in 2018)
64-Bit Operating System
On 31 Mar 2020, installed a GigaByte GEFORCE GTX 1660 GPU
Location: Madison, AL

Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by Robby_Firefox »

Hi Folks,

Wow! Thanks the additional hints MeeLee.

No offense to anyone. I would attempt overclocking my system more, but heat issues say otherwise. The computer almost gets indirect sun for a couple of months during the higher sun angles of Jun-Jul, so tried slowing down the processing a tad, which really worked wonders! Have not had an unstable, at times locked up computer as was the case before then. Yes around that time, I did clean and reapply heat sink goo to CPU fan assembly. It did help some. With cooler times ahead, will restore settings back to their "default" settings in a week or so. Was occupied this weekend with other items. Finally got back to the PC this evening (USA central time) and am trying the 4 threads option to see what occurs. Do have some learning to do about CPU and other settings that could improve production and system stability. Does a 4-thread option means the CPU is running at 50 percent capacity when it comes to folding; reflected in the marked cooler temperatures? Does this affect the GPU performance? Also, can similar things be done to the GPU?

Running the HWiNFO64 sensor utility with 4 threads does show a cooler CPU with temperatures in the low/mid 50s C range vs readings around 70C at -1 auto setting. Temperatures were in the 70-80C range before slowing the system's bios. Documentation suggested no higher than an average of 70C, and not to exceed 85C. Am thinking/hoping that more modern chips will auto throttle back in an attempt to minimize damage from overheating. The GPU is cooking along at 84C with a hot spot temperatures of 96C. Too hot or normal for a GPU.

- Robby
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Joe_H
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by Joe_H »

Robby_Firefox wrote:Does a 4-thread option means the CPU is running at 50 percent capacity when it comes to folding; reflected in the marked cooler temperatures? Does this affect the GPU performance?
Your i7-4770 has 4 physical cores that support 8 processing threads through hyperthreading - HT. When operating on just the 4 main CPU threads the HT circuits in the processor are mostly inactive, that results in a significantly lower amount of heat generated. In terms of processing throughput, for F@h the HT threads only speed things up by about 10-15%. So reduced power usage with not too much loss of CPU throughput for F@h.

How this affects GPU performance is harder to quantify. The CPU with lower heat output will probably run at a higher boost clock which helps. The video driver does not make as much use of flowing point, so can use one of the HT threads part of the time with little impact on CPU processing.
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aetch
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by aetch »

The original release Haswell chips were notorious for running hot. Intel used thermal paste between the heat spreader and the die, it didn't conduct heat quite as well. The Haswell refresh solved this by switching back to solder.

GPU tweaking recommendation - MSI Afterburner.
I power limit my RTX 2070 Super to 55% and my GTX 1080 Ti to 65% and get temps in the low 60s (Celsius).
I think at full power these produce 2.4 million+, I get 1.7-1.9 million PPD. Your millage may vary.

As with any good project, change as few variables as possible otherwise you won't know what worked and what didn't.
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MeeLee
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Re: Installing FAH Windows 10 ~ multiple users

Post by MeeLee »

If your GPU is in the same PC case as the CPU, it often helps lowering the power usage on the GPU, and overclocking it mildly to compensate for the performance drop on a lower TDP.
A cooler running GPU, can run the CPU cooler.
Though, if this was the case, I would have probably suggested to increase case ventilation, and/or use a PCIE riser to relocate the GPU further away from the motherboard.
Quite often leaving your PC case OPEN improves cooling capabilities by a lot more than increasing the amount of airflow inside a closed case.
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